Not including links when saving AI.eps

[J***@adobeforums.com]

The other day a co-worker of mine who doesn't work with Illy that much asked me for help. He was trying to open a customers Illustrator EPS file to make an edit, and did not know what to make of the "can not find linked file <filename> etc..." message.

I told him if they did not send the link choose to extract the image, and then open the newly extracted link in Photoshop and resave for the preview as the extracted imge will not have one.

He came back in about 5 minutes and said that extract was not an option.

That threw me off, so I went to his machine and sure enough, his only options were to find the link, ignore or cancel (which do the same thing... open the file with the linked image gone).

As it happens, the link was somewhere else on his machine, in a "links" folder so all was well, but this got me to wondering.

I am guessing that this particular EPS file was saved with the "include linked images" check box unchecked otherwise "extract" would have been an option. ...and in this case, we all know that "include" really means "embed".

<tangent alarm> I find it odd that embedding images this way embeds them for the purposes of placement and printing in a layout program, but if you try to open the ai.eps file and the links are not in the same folder as said ai.eps file, or are not in the same location that they were in when they were first linked, then Illustrator insists on relinking to the image even though the image is embedded.

Beside the extract feature for when a user sends the EPS without the links, one has to wonder why one cannot open such a file in the same manner as a file in which the images were embedded during file>place, or during editing via links palette flyout. A "re-establish links" dialog box would be nice were you can choose to use the embedded images as fully embedded images, or relink them.

But I digress.

What I was wondering about was that other type of Illy EPS file, were you choose NOT to include links.

I know there is a good reason for doing this and certain workflows that it is a good thing for (OPI ?) but for the life of me I can’t remember what those good reasons are.

To finally get around to my actual question: what are the potential problems of saving an Illy.eps file without the linked images, then placing the eps into a layout and printing? I am guessing that for it to work, the links would be best to reside in the same folder as the Illy.eps file, and if a prepress tech moves the links to a new folder of his making called “links” or something, then they will not be picked up by the print stream from the layout app. And in such a case would there be some type of error message from the printing application, or would the images simply not show up at the rip?

Now, if Bill the designer links to images in a “links” folder on his harddrive, saves the Illy.eps without the links, in another folder altogether, places in QXP and prints, will everything be OK since the Illy.eps contains the proper filepath for the links, “i.e. Bill the designer’s McIntosh HD/Client Files/Nabisco/Corporate Brochure/linked images”?

Then if Bill copies his job to a CD and sends it off to the printer, the printer uploads the files, and now the linked images are no longer at “Bill the designer’s McIntosh HD/Client Files/Nabisco/Corporate Brochure/linked images” but “Bob the Printer’s Mac/Jobs in Progress/109357 Bill’s Design Emporium/linked images”. He opens the QXD updates the link to the Illy.eps file, which is not in the “linked images” folder, but in the “artwork” folder, and prints. Will that be a problem?

What if Bob the printer moves the linked images out of the “linked images” folder and puts them in the “artwork” folder along with the Illy.eps folder? Will this solve the problem assuming a problem exists? Or if Bob the printer opens the Illy.eps file and reestablishes the links, now to “Bob the Printer’s Mac/Jobs I Progress/109357 Bill’s Design Emporium/ linked im

[J***@adobeforums.com]

Long-winded post continued...

What if Bob the printer moves the linked images out of the “linked images” folder and puts them in the “artwork” folder along with the Illy.eps folder? Will this solve the problem assuming a problem exists? Or if Bob the printer opens the Illy.eps file and reestablishes the links, now to “Bob the Printer’s Mac/Jobs I Progress/109357 Bill’s Design Emporium/ linked images” and resaves without the including the links?

Certainly there is a good argument here for including links when saving EPS files out of Illy, but one can’t control what some customers will do.

Notice how I have not included InDesign in any of my questions, though I wonder if similar problems would ensue if you replaced QXP with ID in the above scenarios? Of course the reality of it is: this should not ever come up since the EPS file format out of Illustrator is totally unnecessary for placing in ID, when you can place Illy.ai files.

What about Illy.ai files with LINKED image placed in ID? Are there similar potential file path issues when it comes to printing placed .ai files with links that have moved location, or are not in the same folder as said .ai files?

Geez, I’m rambling now.

I’ll stop.

[Dee Holmes]

I had this problem last week after reading this post

Dee Holmes "embedded vs linked photoshop files" 5/23/04 3:52pm </cgi-bin/webx?14@@.3bb44034/0>

I always checked include links, but someone said that it just embedded the file anyway. So I left it unchecked, and when I reopened my file, the links were lost. They were in the same folder also, and I couldn't relink them either. I had to bring them in as embedded.

[J***@adobeforums.com]

Hey John,

Well, I never fully explored all of the different variables regarding this matter.

I am doing various tests and have found some inexplicaple results. I do not want to post yet until I confirm the results on other boxes and do some further tests. When all is said and done, I do not think I will be able to post the "why" for the results received.

What I can post now is that I am very frustrated with the include links checkbox whether saving out to eps or .ai.

Place a eps, tif, pdf, and a psd in a illustrator document.

Save out as .ai without including links and name the file linked.ai.
Save out as eps without including links and name the file linked.eps.
Save out as .ai and include links and name the file include.ai.
Save out as eps and include links and name the file include.eps.

The linked.ai and linked.eps files will reopen with all of its links intacted.

The include.ai and include.eps files will reopen with ONLY the eps link intacted. The psd, pdf and tif images will now be embedded. (This is my frustration with the process because the results should be that all of the images remain linked)

Upon reopening he include files with the eps link missing, users can extract the image from the document. (and do a resave in its native application to regain the preview) In the linked files, users do NOT have the option to extract the files.

My position on the linked verses embed/include is that users generate their documents as linked. The Illustrator documents then that are handed off to a printer are saved as inlcude links or embed them.

As with InDesign or Quark. All placed images should remain LINKED at all times.

That is my opinion.

I will post at a later time with preserving links when transferring to other systems.

[Dee Holmes]

Thank you for taking the time to work this out, John K.

[J***@adobeforums.com]

I think Illy has actually embedded tiffs as compared to eps when selecting the "include links" option when saving EPS out of Illy, and it has done so since version 8.

So presumably, the message about missing links (when they are not sent with the EPS file) would only happen for linked EPS when "include links" was checked, or ALL files when "include links" was not checked.

It seems that one has to go to some trouble and ignore warnings about not including links when saving EPS, so doing so must cause problems, printing from QXP... And I still wonder about saving .ai without the including the links and potential printing problems from placing in ID.

Of course I agree with your stance on links... we have enough file bloat as it is... and embedding makes edits a chore.

However saving an Illustrator.ai file without including the links, then placing in ID and printing seems like the right way to go, where as saving an Illustrator.eps file without including the links, then placing in QXP and printing seems like the wrong way to go.

[Dee Holmes]

So, I think you're saying the same thing as I am?

When saving, include links, right? I guess, even if that means it will be embedded?

There is a difference, in my shop anyway. It takes longer to RIP embedded files than links.

I'm telling you, I've had good luck for years linking files and choosing include links in the save menue until now. Then someone suggested that option only embedded files anyway and not to choose include linked files.

Do not attempt this unless a test. I know from experience....

Just wait for John Kallios' analosis.

[Dee Holmes]

John, K. please do both analosis AI10 and AIOS

[Dee Holmes]

I would be more than happy to, but this week is out. I'm swamped!

[J***@adobeforums.com]

Just wait for John Kallios' analysis




Well, I am still doing it. Being a little swamped at work, it will take 1 or 2 more days.

I would much rather have a few people devise their own tests and post their results so that a sufficient cross section of prepress systems can be posted.

[a***@adobeforums.com]

There are two separate issues here. The first issue concerns how Illustrator's saving options relate to embedding files. The second concerns when is it necessary to embed.

On the first issue:
When saving, checking the "Include Linked Files" option embeds all files that aren't already embedded. If all your files are already embedded, then this option isn't available.
Leaving the option unchecked leaves the files as linked. From what I've seen, this causes the most confusion. If you want linked files instead of embedded files, DO NOT check "Include Linked Files". As someone suggested in another thread, they really should change this option to "Embed Linked Files" to eliminate some of the confusion.

On the second issue:
If you are outputting from Quark, and placing the images directly in Quark is not an option, then embed the images in Illustrator. If not embedded, there is a high probability that Quark will lose the link. It is very common for files to lose their links when placed in a separate folder from the Illustrator file and sometimes Quark may produce incorrect output with no warning about a missing file. It's similar to an Illustrator file using a missing font and outputting from Quark - Sometimes you'll get a warning, but other times you'll simply get output with Courier font substituted.
If you are outputting from Illustrator, embed or link placed images, whichever you and your printer prefers. ALWAYS ask the printer which one they prefer. Illustrator files with embedded images are much larger and take longer to RIP. If linking files, you MUST send the original linked files along with the Illustrator file. If embedding, though it's not required, and may even seem redundant, send the originals as a fail-safe for any problems that may occur.

Allen Curtis

[J***@adobeforums.com]

This one has been bugging me for quite some time. I've even posted a couple of times about it.

My experiance has been that when saved as 'text" or "ai", files with TIFF links will be about the same size as they would be without the links at all unless you have checked "include linked files". BUT, when changing to "save as EPS" the file does indeed appear to bloat by about the size of the link no matter how you save it. I haven't experimented at all with it to determine if it is embedded.

I found as John did that a linked EPS image will not swell the Illustrator file when saved.

[J***@adobeforums.com]

I, like John K, have been a bit busy at work and plan on testing eventually.

I think what I will find out is that saving EPS without including links simply will not work when placed in a layout and printed... period.

You get a warning in Illy when saving this way, so I have to wonder what the option is for, and now I can safely say that the customer who saved an EPS that way would have caused problems on our end. Of course being in the service side of the biz, dealing with client mistakes is a daily event.

For that matter, unless you are still stuck in the need-to-use-Quark mode, there is no compelling reason for saving EPS out of Illustrator, with or without links included.

Linking all raster elements in a .AI file, saving without including links, then placing in ID to print (or printing out of Illy if you dare) in the wave of the future. We can say goodbye to not only EPS, but clipping paths using a modern Adobe workflow...

As Martha would say, it's a good thing.

The only thing I am unsure about is whether moving a file which is linked to a .AI file which in turn is linked to an ID document will cause the image to not find its way into the print stream.

[J***@adobeforums.com]

Well I got a chance to play with the .ai format as it relates to placing in, and printing from InDesign, and found out some things I didn't know.

I placed a single 10.9MB tiff in Illustrator 10.0.3 and CS (linked not embedded), and saved .ai files with the following options: resulting .ai file size.

AI10.0.3:
PDF Compatibility OFF/Include linked images OFF : .ai file size- 256kb
PDF Compatibility ON/Include linked images OFF : .ai file size- 272kb
PDF Compatibility ON/Include linked images ON : .ai file size- 19.7MB

AICS:
PDF Compatibility OFF/Include linked images OFF : .ai file size- 564kb
PDF Compatibility ON/Include linked images OFF : .ai file size- 8.8MB
PDF Compatibility ON/Include linked images ON : .ai file size- 18.2MB

In all cases, "use compression" was enabled.

The first thing I found is that you must choose PDF compatiblity if you are going to place the .ai file in ID. Otherwise you get a block of text in ID when trying to place a non-PDF compatible .ai file, which explains that fact.

Second, when saving with PDF compatibility, whether or not you need to include linked images (if you are destined to place in>print from ID) depends on your Illustrator version.

In Illy 10, if you do not include linked images, then placing such a .ai file in ID will come up blank where the placed tiff was, and will print that way. So from Illy 10, you MUST include links when saving a .ai file that will be placed in ID.

In Illy CS, if you do not include linked images, then placing such a .ai file in ID will display and print the tiff fine.

The implication here is that when using CS, choosing PDF compatibility embeds the linked tiffs, whether or not you select "include linked images", and that doing the same thing in AI10 does NOT embed the linked tiffs.

Note the file size difference above... same scenario v10=272kb; CS=8.8MB

Even if you place a tiff linked, save a PDF compatible .ai without links, then delete the original tiff, placing and printing the resulting .ai file seems to work.

It seems to boil down to the fact that placed rasters must be embedded one way or another if the Illustrator art is to be placed in a layout.

Finally, choosing to include linked images in a CS.ai file, seems to serve only to balloon file size by doubling the data for the tiff.

Next I will try placing a Photoshop.eps to see if that changes anything.... then back to the Illy.eps format, and placing/printing from Quack.

[Dee Holmes]

The first thing I found is that you must choose PDF compatiblity if you are going to place the .ai file in ID. Otherwise you get a block of text in ID when trying to place a non-PDF compatible .ai file, which explains that fact.

Same thing happens when you place an .eps file like that in Quark 4.11.

[J***@adobeforums.com]

Thanks John,

I still plan on testing but did not have time. ( when I did have time I was too lazy to do it)

In Illy CS, if you do not include linked images, then placing such a .ai
file in ID will display and print the tiff fine.





The implication here is that when using CS, choosing PDF compatibility
embeds the linked tiffs, whether or not you select "include linked images",
and that doing the same thing in AI10 does NOT embed the linked tiffs.




This is what I was referring to in a previous post as being "inexplicable" and did not want to mention it until further testing.

Thanks again and I will post my test "soon". Of course, you know how lazy I get.

[J***@adobeforums.com]

I don't think PDF compatibility is an option when saving EPS from Illustrator...

Initial testing with EPS from Illy 10.0.3 is also not what I expected.

It seems when you deselect "include linked files" you get this message:

"Linked files will not be saved as a part of this document, Choose "Embed Files" if you want this document to be self-contained or you intend to open or print it from another application."

...and you have 3 options: Embed, Cancel or Preserve links

The implication is that if you ignore the warning, by Preserving links, you won't be able to place and print from a layout.

But here is the funny thing:

Even if you choose Preserve links the images get embedded anyway.

At least on my system, placing a tiff linked, it did.

Placing the same 10.9MB tiff from above and saving EPS from AI10 produced these results:

No include links- ignore dialog and Preserve links: 13.8MB

Include links: 24.9MB (more than double the data)

And contrary to what I had figured, the EPS file in which the links were supposedly preserved placed and printed from QXP and ID without a hitch, even if the original tiff was gone.

Ergo: saving Illy EPS embeds rasters no matter how you do it.

...still need to try AICS... and other image formats of placed images.

[Dee Holmes]

I don't think PDF compatibility is an option when saving EPS from Illustrator...

Well, I remember seeing the option for it on OS9.2.2, I'll have to check tomorrow if it's still there for OS10.3.3. I thought it was.

It seems when you deselect "include linked files" you get this message:

"Linked files will not be saved as a part of this document, Choose "Embed Files" if you want this document to be self-contained or you intend to open or print it from another application."

I don't remember getting that message in OS9.2.2 when I tried that a couple of weeks ago. I don't think I would have gone ahead with unchecking it if I got that message.

[Dee Holmes]

John, what system are you on again? And are you opening these .eps files again in AI?

When in OS9.2.2 I opened my file agian in AI and links were all missing. I just got system 10.3.3 and I'm also going to have to do some checking with this as well. But, I'm swamped for now. I'm going to have to work Saturday again, I can see it coming.

[J***@adobeforums.com]

Saving EPS from AICS acts the same as doing so from AI10, in that not including links embeds them anyway, and file sizes are almost identical.

Placing Photoshop eps files instead of tiffs seems to induce the same results vis-a-vis placing and printing, but as noted before will induce the "extract" option when opening an Illy.eps file that was saved with links included, and when the original link is missing. That is the only situation in which "extract" is an option.

[Dee Holmes]

Wade, we are recovering it because it seems inconsistent with different versions and different systems.

[W***@adobeforums.com]

I didn't read everything but there is a difference between Ai 10 and AIU CS in that if if you turn pdf compatibility on in AI 10 and do not use the include links then you will not have it display as you found out when opening in acrobat etc. That is the pdf compatibility does not work in AI 10 but is corrected in AI CS.

It is also my understanding that it does two things when you have compatibility and include linked images in that it produces what could be a self contained pdf file for other applications and it includes the link image so that the linked image if necessary can be altered in say photoshop and replace it in the .ai file.

So one is document oriented and the other is only link oriented.

BTW this has been covered here on the forum. But very briefly.

[W***@adobeforums.com]

Hi Dee it didn't work 100% in AI 10 and it works properly in AI CS and hence the larger file sizes as well.

[J***@adobeforums.com]

Wade:

In an older thread on AICS file sizes you came to the same conclusion that I have, namely that choosing PDF compatibilty when saving a .ai file from AICS is actually embedding the images (even if you deselect "include linked images")... and that selecting "include linked images" embeds the images a second time.

So it seems that embedding by choosing the PDF compatiblity is seen as correct behavior?

So that images can be viewed in Acrobat?

The embedded images are good to print too right?

What is the difference between saving a PDF compatible .ai file and saving a .pdf file?

Why would one ever include links when saving a .ai file if one was also choosing PDF compatibility? Seems like unnessessary file bloat to me.

Could there be a reason to NOT choose PDF compatibility, but include links?

And what about saving EPS out of Illy 10 or CS? Do you get the same embedding even if you "preserve links"?

lots of questions.

Dee:

I am testing v10 in OS9.2.3 and AICS in OSX not sure which build.

[W***@adobeforums.com]

Saving as a PDF compatible file is not the same as embedding the image it is more than that as it allows the whole document to be read and seen by other applications even if there is no linked image or text files. and you can then resave it as a pdf and use it.

Include linked files actually includes the linked file in the document but does not embed it if you have these both selected then it will be possible for you to recover sand edit these linked files even though they are not actually present. So that is why you would include them so they could recovered edit resaved and reintroduced into the AI file.

You can save size if you do not include the PDF compatibility and if you are only going to us AI to output these files.

The PDF compatibility is a good choice and for InDesign and Acrobat they are good to print even if you don't include the linked files but you will encounter troubles when opening or placing in AI.

The same goes for include linked files in an EPS.

[W***@adobeforums.com]

I am mistaken about linking text files though I guess I got lost in InDesign.

Thought this should be possible in AI CS.

[C***@adobeforums.com]

In Illustrator 10, when you saved your file as an Illustrator native file with PDF compatibility, you could choose not to include linked files in PDF-compatible documents This reduced file size, but, without linked art, the file would not display correctly in other PDF viewers. However, in Illustrator CS the Include Linked Files option only refers to the PGF portion,(Illustrator Native portion), of the file. Illustrator CS automatically embeds any linked files when you choose Create PDF Compatible File, regardless of the status of the Include Linked Files option. If you are not interested in creating a PDF compatible file, deselect the Create PDF Compatible File option to reduce file size.

[W***@adobeforums.com]

Chelan not exactly not to confuse the issue but save an ,ai file with PDF compatibility turned on with linked images and deselect include linked images. then trash the linked images and then open in AI CS.

[J***@adobeforums.com]

Chelan not exactly not to confuse the issue but save an ,ai file with
PDF compatibility turned on with linked images and deselect include linked
images. then trash the linked images and then open in AI CS.




Of course Illy looks to find the missing links, and even though the files are embedded and can be viewed in other apps, and even printed from other apps, they can not be extracted from the PDF compatible .ai file when opening in AI...

I suppose you could place the .ai file in ID and export EPS or PDF to get your links back...

[W***@adobeforums.com]

I suppose you could place the .ai file in ID and export EPS or PDF to
get your links back..




That would be a way and opening in Acrobat as well perhaps and saving as a PDF.